“You deny who you are by hoping to make yourself different.”
That was a comment from another of these “gay pigeonholers”, posted over at My Hetero Gay Life*.
What an absolutely bizarre notion! Of course I hope to make myself different; I do not consider who I am now to be so close to perfect as to lack room for improvement. Or looking back – am I the same person that I am now (at 31) as I was at 15? No – thank God! Do I hope to be the same way in another 31 years? Absolutely not.
But I doubt that that’s exactly what the commenter (”ewe”) meant. (S/he’s welcome to explain here if s/he really likes.) I suspect that the meaning rather was “by hoping to be not-gay, you deny that you are gay”. Except that that makes no sense either.
Perhaps, “you deny that what you are is good, if you hope to be otherwise”. (The statements “what you are is good” and “what you are is perfect” are not of course identical.) Well, that part may be true enough; I suppose that, if Jay (of M.H.G.L.) confidently agreed with the idea that he should leave his wife and kids and “straight life” behind, he wouldn’t be blogging about his struggle to resist that.
On the other hand, why on earth should anyone be content with the way he is now? (As far as “degree of perfection” goes, anyway, and distinct from being “content in every circumstance”.) Would you tell a fat man “you deny yourself, if you ever hope to make yourself thin”? or an alcoholic, “you deny yourself, if you ever hope to keep yourself sober”? or a single man (of any orientation) “you deny yourself, if you ever hope to find a partner”?
(”But those are all BAD things that you compare it to! That’s homophobic!” Fine – but the whole point of the comparison is to other circumstances in which someone wants to change. Does a fit man wish to be fat? Does a happy sober man want to wash his life down the drain with a bottle of Scotch? Not everyone who has same-sex desires is happy with them, and people (like ewe) who suggest otherwise can be astoundingly offensive about that fact. “It’s good enough for me! you should like it too!” Yes, and heterosexual desires are “good enough” for most people…)
“You deny who you are”… No, he’s just accepting that there are bonds and vows more important than lust, and that life can be far more complicated than some would try to pretend. Or, to put it another way – he’s being more than gay, choosing to be his own man rather than stamping himself into a mold.
Another gem from ewe: “it is gay people that tolerate straight people, not the other way around which is what we are led to believe is needed.” Right, ’cause you sure don’t tolerate gay people who aren’t gay in the way you think they should be.
*(Great blog, that, by the way… I can very easily see myself in a similar situation, so it resonates quite strongly with me. And I absolutely admire his honesty about the conflicts he feels, and his determination to “man up”, denying his own desires for the sake of his wife and family. That takes far more balls than jumping out of the closet into a world of show tunes and gay pride parades ever would.)
July 1, 2008 at 11:41 pm
no comment. your thoughts are in cement so i won’t bother.
July 2, 2008 at 12:26 am
Thank you. Really. Thank you for taking time to understand. He does think that there are bonds greater than lust. Obviously since we’ve been together for so long and he’s denied himself those pleasures.
I honestly think that if we had not fallen in love, he’d be happy being gay. But being in love makes us do things for that person who holds our heart.
July 2, 2008 at 7:21 am
@ewe: Actually … my thoughts are a lot more fluid. That’s what this blog is about. And I firmly believe that
1. There’s a lot more to a man (and relating to other men) than who he wants to have sex with.
2. It’s a big world and not every part of it (or everyone in it) has to look or act the same.
3. Building fences and expecting other people to obediently herd themselves into pens is pretty pointless… and screaming abuse at the ones who ignore your fences is even more pointless.
So on the one hand, we’ve got you saying “if you’re gay, you cannot possibly remain married to a woman”. On the other hand, I’m saying “whether you’re gay or not, you can be your own man regardless of what other people expect”.
Which of those is “set in cement”? Which of those is “intolerant”?
(Again, if I’ve misrepresented your thoughts – I admit that I didn’t make it past all the insults – I’m sorry, and please feel free to correct me if you’d like.)
@anginae: Yes… yes love does give us “oughts” higher than “wants”. Praying for you both
July 3, 2008 at 5:08 am
This debate is a little bit intriguing. I havent read “ewe”s comments on MHGL but I seem to sense some animosity between him/her and “maybebi” which I think should be uncalled for. I thought this is an intellectual forum which though not necessarily devoid of animosity would have more accomodation for different points of view. Disclaimer: This opinion is not “set in cement”.
“you deny who you are by hoping to make yourself different”. Does this mean that “hope that you can be different” is an aid to “denying who you are”? or does it mean that “denying who you are” is an aid to “making yourself different”.
First, I think nobody should deny who they are. Second, different does not necessarily mean better.
So the debate should be on what is “better”? If Jay left his wife and children and lived a gay life with all the beautiful boys he is intensely attracted to and lets assume he finds happiness in that life. Would he consider that as “better”. Or if he chose to stick it out like he is doing now, sleep with the woman he has no feelings for everyday while fantasizing about the boy he met today at the shop, and finds happiness (presumably) in that life. Would he consider this as “better”. Do all of you guys consider “the ability to find happiness in that life” as a reason for making such decision.
What is Jay looking for in either of these two choices that he is faced with? Is it happiness? If its not happiness then what is it? An answer to this question could inform my next comment.
Now to “Maybebi”:
You seem to suggest that just like Jay (a presumably “homosexual” man stuck in a “heterosexual” relationship, you may in future be a “heterosexual” stuck in a “homosexual” relationship. I find that interesting too. I need to first be sure that this interpretation is correct before I comment any further.
For Anginae:
Would you allow your husband to have sex with other men with your knowledge since they are the ones he is attracted to? Could you and your children possibly tolerate a sort of “second wife” in your home in the form of a handsome gay boy to satisfy your husbands sexual needs. In the same vein can Jay tolerate a “second husband” for Anginae.
I am asking the above question because as a closeted gay I also intend to marry (for reasons that all of you guys seem to understand judging from your defence of Jay’s current decision) at some point but I am hoping that my wife will allow me a boyfriend or boyfriends. It is more difficult to decide if I would also allow her the same.
Please keep it friendly even if your opinion is “different” or “in cement”
July 3, 2008 at 7:48 am
It *is* an intellectual forum, but it’s also one focused on emotions (including love) and sex. I disagree strongly with nearly all of the views that Ewe has expressed. I also reacted negatively to the language he used in comments over on MHGL.
Actually I disagree with the idea that “denying who you are” is necessarily linked at all to “hoping to make yourself different”. It was, however, one sentence from ewe’s comment which stood out at me. Paraphrasing to put it in context, the thought is actually more like “By hoping to continue your marriage to a woman, you are denying the homosexuality you recently revealed to her and trying to make yourself straight.” (Which really doesn’t sound at all like what Jay at MHGL is actually trying to do.)
I don’t consider “the ability to find happiness” to be the key reason for making any choice – in this case, there are commitments and responsibilities involved as well. I really can’t comment on what Jay may ultimately be looking for – I don’t know if anyone can but him, so you might check out his blog and ask him direct.
I wouldn’t describe it as “stuck” at all – the relationship we’re both comfortable with (as brothers who don’t happen to be related biologically) is one that lasts for life anyway and doesn’t interfere with other kinds of love. Yes, we have a crush on each other. That doesn’t mean that that’s always going to be the case, or that neither of us will ever find someone else.
Not perhaps my business to say, but hey, it’s my blog so I’ll stick my two cents wherever I want… If a closeted gay man marries a woman for the sake of appearances, and she doesn’t realize it’s only “for appearances”, I think he would be doing her a great wrong. (Distinct from the case of a gay man marrying a lesbian, for instance.) (From their blogs) it sounds like Jay and Anginae are only holding together through fantastic amounts of grace, determination and love – I admire them both, but I wonder if most other couples would be so successful at it!
July 3, 2008 at 8:53 am
A fair comment I would say.
I think its fair to say that Jay is not denying his homosexuality. People who think that “staying in a marriage that is not working” is equivalent to “denying the reasons why the marriage may not be working” are wrong if you ask me. Walking out is just one of the options and is not necessarily the right one.
I also agree that if you have a crush. It doesnt mean it will stay that way. I must go off now but I will add on this comment later.
July 4, 2008 at 6:55 am
I had to log off abruptly yesterday before I could complete my comment.
“the relationship…..is one that last for life…and doesnt interfere with other kinds of love”
I have had boyfriends to whom I was very attracted.
One of them was also attracted to me and we even had intimate experiences. Then he moved in with his girlfriend with whom they have a baby girl (a very cute baby that I love as well)
Since then, he seems uncomfortable with my relationship with me. It appears as if he prefers to mentain the brotherly love, but cut off the sexual part. Personally I am not confortable with the brotherly love because I will miss the sex since I am strongly attracted to him. Every time I see him I will want to touch him, if he refuses, I will feel hurt. To me it appears impossible that I will mentain close friendship with him.
Another friend was very close me, just like a brother, nothing sexual. However I was always strongly attracted to him. Through our flirting and sleeping together, I got even more attracted to him through for instance seing him naked or touching his body.
I sent him an anonymous e-mail making a “pass at him”. He replied it with very homophobic and hateful words saying stuff like “God made man for woman”, “fuck fuck fuck….. you, your family etc”. At the same time I had actually written to him another e-mail from my official e-mail and he replied it with “a sweet response” telling me he likes me “so so so much”.
And so here I was with 2 emails from the same person to the same person sending totally different messages. As much as I felt he was homophobic, I still felt he may be gay so I did not end our relationship though I pulled back a bit.
Over time we remained on and off in our relationship with him sending mixed signals most of the time. Recently, I decided to end the relationship.
I ended the relationship mainly because I felt that as much as I loved him, I was not getting him to love me back.
Are you sure that brotherly relationships (between non-relatives) goes on for life?
July 4, 2008 at 7:16 am
While I am actually currently ending all meaningless relationships in my life as a way to cut on stress (believe me I ve been stressed in the past, I hope the future is better), I have not yet ended one relationship: the one with my girlfriend.
First of all, as much as I feel more emotionally attached to the boys, they seem to always disappoint. As a result, I am not sure if I could get a relationship with a man that can be enduring and even lead to marriage. What will happen to me if I need a social network to support me at a more advanced age? Wouldnt a wife and children be more useful than a boyfriend and adopted or surrogate mothered children?
Secondly, how do I end it? What reasons do I give? Wont ending it be a way of coming out? “I am sorry, I dont love you because…” Wont she be hurt and try to revenge by telling the world that I am homosexual? Wont I regret this decision since she appears “the perfect marriage-material”? Can’t I get married to her and love her even if I am having sexual relations with men on the side?
On the other hand I have refused to get married to her precisely because I am not even close to finding answers to all the above and other questions. Possibly even this is being unfair to her. Sometimes I also feel, maybe she should just get another man. However taking a look around me, there are so many dysfunctional relationships and marriages making me think that many other men are like me, but chose to marry “for appearances”. So I think even if I let her go she could jump from the frying pan to the fire. Maybe if she stays with me, she could also have some time to explore herself and her options.
Believe me there are no easy answers to these questions so you or others reading this can give their take.
July 4, 2008 at 9:42 am
My take on that… which may be an unpopular one… Warning: Active gender role stereotypes ahead.
It’s difficult for guys to bond emotionally in the right way for “marriage” (or “partnership” or whatever people want to call it). It’s easier for us to bond as friends/buddies; i.e., without romance. That romantic bond requires meeting each others’ needs in a different way, and it’s a way of complementing each other that (I think) is most easily met when there’s a significant difference in traits which get lumped together as “masculinity” and “femininity”. When both guys are about the same level, there’s not much force there for that kind of attachment.
(In my head there’s a whole lot of chemistry stuff tied in with this as an analogy, but then that’s true in my head about most stuff. I can try to post about that if anyone’s really curious. Really really curious.)
Peeling away a bit of the stereotyping there… Guys tend to offer, and require, certain things from a relationship. What we can offer is not always the same as what we require. It’s like trying to build a house with a friend, and both of you bring a hammer and some wood, but nobody’s got windows, nails and paint. You can pile the wood together any way you want, but it’s not gonna hold together as a house.
(That was not really intended to be suggestive. Sorry! Wait, no I’m not.)
In my case (since that’s the one I know about), neither one of us is “hyper masculine”, but neither one of us is really feminine either. (He’s perhaps a bit more so.) So as much as I might wish, for the sake of convenience and simplicity and stuff, that I *could* feel that romantic attraction for him… or at least what I’ve felt in the past by way of “romantic” love… it really doesn’t “take”. (I suppose I could go find a more feminine guy, but frankly I think I don’t think I could get into a guy like that in any kind of way at all.)
As far as marriage to a woman goes – I haven’t tried it, yet, so I don’t know. My impression is that waiting until you know ALL the answers (about yourself, about her, about marriage, about the future) means waiting forever. We don’t even know all the questions, before marriage! On the other hand, there’s a lot of other times we have to jump into what we know to be right and useful (and fun, too, once we’re used to it) — starting a new job, or a new school, or moving to a new city. An apt comparison right now for me, since I’m about to do all three…
July 7, 2008 at 2:57 am
Good comments. Its intriguing because I dont look feminine and I usually dont get attracted to feminine looking guys. In fact I tend to get attracted to the most masculine of the lot. Funny that with these, we may never form a permanent bond (which seems to happen all the time) and yet I dont think I will stop getting attracted to them or will get attracted to a “feminine” type.
I am also wondering if I am not going to “wait forever”. The few times my girlfriend has come around for “a few days”. Those few days feel so long and I wonder how it would be if she was to stay “here” for life.
Not enough time to comment properly. Maybe later.
July 7, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I have spent some time now relating with men (not necessarily in a romantic way) and its as if there is something temporary about these relationships. I have found these relationships with guys different from the ones with women. The men seem to believe that the relationship is temporary. As a result, they cant think so much in terms of “we” (as in both of you). They tend to think more in terms of “I” (as in being selfish). The ladies however seem to believe more in permanency and even tend to be less selfish. Perhaps its because the men tend to presume that I am not going to marry them while the ladies presume that I am going to marry them (which ofcourse tends to cause me some anxiety).
I think you may be right. Perhaps its impossible to relate with a man in a certain way when you are a man. I realise at this point that I need to listen to a man who is married to another man and hear how it came about, how they felt before and how they feel after (getting married).
July 12, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Anginae is the one who has planted that misrepresentation that i think gay men are about lust and sex. You people are very immature. By the way, gay people do not leave a straight life behind because they are not nor never were straight. Do you now see what your reference point is drawn from. You have a heterosexual ideal that you work out of. I don’t. We disagree. **** you too.
Profanity is neither needed nor welcome on this site. — Ed.
July 12, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I didn’t actually claim that gay men are about lust and sex, and any implication that *you* think that is reading a bit much into it. You do seem to think that a gay guy’s identity (”ideal”) as gay is more important than promises he has made.
Personally, I’ve found gay guys to be about as lust-driven as straight guys… which is to say, “not entirely, all the time”. I also don’t consider anyone’s sexual orientation to be his (or her) defining characteristic. (Perhaps that’s part of my “heterosexual ideal.”) In other words, I don’t consider the case of a gay guy who got married (to a woman) and now is thinking about leaving her (because he’s gay) to be fundamentally different from the case of a straight guy who got married (to a woman) and now is thinking about leaving her (because he’s attracted to another woman).
(That’s not meant as comment or judgement on Jay, or anyone else. Both are hard situations to be in.)
Finally, if you’ve actually *read* my blog, instead of just this one post, then you might wonder how purely hetero my ideals are. For one thing, I’ve consistently pointed out that “straight” behavior includes a surprising set of ways for guys to relate to each other, and a surprising set of limitations as well…. and that it’s not just “straight” behavior that places the limits.
Immaturity sees only two places in the world – “here, by me” and “there, away from me”. Maturity says “there’s a lot of places in the world, aren’t there?” Immaturity says “we start from different ideas, we can never agree”. Maturity says “let’s examine both our ideals and see if they’re really THAT different.”
But you’re right about one thing… we do disagree. Congrats for figuring that out!
July 14, 2008 at 2:27 am
you want to examine a few things. Lets examine one thing “straight boy.” If you are playing or have played with you friends ****, you are a ***. If you are touching him, kissing him, sleeping with him, you know the rest. Just go do a little research and ask some anonymous straight guys if you are the same as they are. Stop sniveling on the side lines, get out your handkerchief and join the club. You cannot sit out while we do all the work.
Profanity redacted, again. Strike 2. — Ed.
July 14, 2008 at 8:10 am
Yawn. Ewe, “darlin”, tell me this… if a “gay boy” has ever had sex with a woman, does that make him straight?
Yes? then your advice to Jay was foolish and cruel.
No? it’s a bit biased to suppose it only works “one way”. That’s okay, you understand that “sexual orientation” is as simple as “have you ever done ____ with another male”, regardless of who, when, why, where, or anything else… and that “have you ever done anything with a woman” is irrelevant. “Straightness” isn’t catching, only gayness. (Double standard much?)
Oh, I forgot! other guys’ bodies carry special cooties and if any of there cooties get on me then they turn me gay.
Really, can we please move beyond the second grade playground level?
And as far as my attitude and this site – I’m hardly “sniveling”, wherever the “side lines” are. (Do you think it’s all some kind of game? Stop daydreaming about big sweaty men and use your brain.) I have no intention of you, or anyone else, doing “all the work”.
What work? I don’t intend this as some big group therapy session. This is my site where I write about whatever I like. People are welcome to read and comment, but I neither expect nor require “therapy” from random strangers. And people are welcome to comment only so long as they can avoid needless profanity… if you can’t express yourself clearly with grownup words, then don’t bother trying.
July 14, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I am not your darlin girlfriend and no, a gay person who sleeps with the opposite sex is bisexual. The only second grade playground tactics are you pretending with the rest of us that you are sitting perched on top of some pedestal examining human sexuality from afar with all your wisdom (or lack thereof) You got one thing right though. YAWN. And since i feel compelled to answer your insults of daydreaming about big sweaty men, it is this: I don’t daydream about having sex or being close with other men because i have been actually doing it unlike you who just thinks about it, tries it and analyzes it while sitting in the comfort zone and calling yourself heterosexual. Ask your gay friend you profess to love. hahahah. He will tell you. Keep your childish insults to me focused on people who actually feel diminished by gay men in the closet like yourself. Silly *** tart. You cannot even allow a swear word in your blog comments because your narrow outlook on life is so pathetically immature.
July 14, 2008 at 12:23 pm
And in case you think you are being avant garde or the new generation of thought on human sexuality, you are not. I am fully aware that Q is now added to LGBT or GLBT and that it is a safe place where identity gets to remain fluid so as not to take responsibility for who you are whenever the going gets tough which defines the generation of slackers under 30 years of age.
July 14, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Ewe, please don’t feel “compelled” to answer anything you perceive to be an insult. Or even “compelled” to respond at all. I do appreciate that we can agree that “a gay person” can sleep with the opposite sex and be called “bi”. So why is it that one touch of another guy would reveal a “straight person” to be gay, rather than bi? Apparently “gay” includes “anything other than strictly exclusively heterosexual”. If “Q” is the “new generation of thought” then your position seems to represent several generations back… congrats on being so retro.
In any case, *if* “a gay guy who sleeps with women” is “bi”, then there’s no particular reason for Jay (for instance) to leave his wife and embark on his fulfilling life as a gay man… since there certainly are married bisexuals. If you’re going to pick the terms, at least apply them consistently, and base them on *all* the data that people make available in the form of earlier posts. (I don’t particularly care how the labels wind up defined, it’s just annoying to hear sloppy usage of them.)
Now, as for your reasons for commenting – You do not feel “diminished” by “gay men in the closet”. We have established that we do not know each other, and likely don’t care to know each other. Therefore, my sexuality and my “analysis” of it are entirely irrelevant to you, whether you agree or not. And it seems unlikely that we will ever agree on it, nor do I particularly care whether we do or not. So why keep wasting your time?
As far as swear words go – I’m mature enough to handle them. But if you really can’t express the same idea more creatively using other words, then did it really need to be said at all? But don’t worry, I’ve edited you for the last time.
And yes, in retrospect the “daydreaming” bit was a cheap shot.